JESUS CHRIST & RAMAKRISHNA?
Gust of Wind
by Lucien-Levy Dhurmer
Dear Swami G,
Peace be with you....
Here is what is going on now. You did not like the force of my arguments in favor of souls who have a discipline other than yours, an attainment I claim is comparable to yours, (most notably Christians) and since you cannot answer my statements, you are attacking me "ad hominem;" which means 'to the person, appealing to personal interests, prejudice and emotions rather than to reason.'
In this place, the argument ceases. It is not longer according to the rules of fair play. Although, I must add, you are continuing the discussion today, and perhaps there is hope.
I am not surprised that you have taken this stance. Why should I be? You are a human being, your claims to the contrary.
Shall I tell you why I refrained from writing your article at first? After listening to the tape of our conversation several times, I despaired at the claims you made. A friend of mine told me how you had suffered from attacks (although you say you don't suffer!) and I did not want you to go through the same thing. I know how vile people get on the internet, as I have been the subject of many tirades, including those of your associate Rev. Jeff. I felt that if I wrote the interview exactly as you spoke it, you would be subject to ridicule and scorn. You would become a laughing stock. After turning it over and over in my mind, I told a friend,
"I cannot write this interview. People would laugh at Swami G. She would be subject to ridicule, and she has already been through that. I cannot subject her to this again. I don't write articles like that.'
was wrong with the interview? The same thing that came up again, now written
in a slightly milder way - and it comes up again and again. That is, that
you are the only person who has the Truth, and no one else has it but this
one guy in Los Angeles, and everyone else is beneath you! You do not say Jesus
Christ is beneath you, but there is a feeling you think so, because you believe
that all saints who called God God (and Jesus PRAYED to God and said we should
PRAY without ceasing!) rather than BEING God - like you are - were and are
beneath you. This includes every great saint of the Christian persuasion and
all saints of all religions. The only ones left standing (except for a tiny
number that are dead) in this Lofty Empyrean are yourself and the man in L.A.
The large majority of
saints and mystics are all swept away in your vision, relegated to the lower rung of Sarvikalpa Samadhi.
And I put the project down and did other things. Then, it seemed, you wanted to continue, so I obliged you. Perhaps it could be worded in some way that would be less offensive, and I felt, after it was written by you, it sounded much better.
did not prevent me from saying my piece. After all, I am a journalist, not
a devotee or press agent. If you want a fan to write your article, perhaps
Rev. Jeff is a good candidate. He seems to
want to get involved in every letter addressed to you, anyway.
to Jeff: Jeff, when you go to bat for someone, you need a big baseball bat.
But you only have a small one. Hahahahaha. (This is to refute the fact that
you say I do not understand humor,
and Swami G keeps telling you to 'lighten up.' So there it is.)
The things you said you never did - make yourself exclusive and put everyone lower - you do over and over again. You keep accusing my vision of being on a lower level! What is worse, as I said before, you began attacking my physical person. You are bringing psychology into this, analyzing me, (which I don't need) and as you did in your interview against saints (saints with messiah complexes and trying to save others out of their pain, and attached to suffering, etc.), accusing me of emotional needs or debits which are motivating me within this debate! If I needed counseling, I would have gone to a therapist or a psychologist! I came to you to debate a doctrine, not to talk about our mutual psychological needs, if any! I am not analyzing you - why should you presume to analyze me? Again, there is the presumption of superiority here, on your part - that you are looking down on me and I need to be fixed! Debate the issues, not my personality, motivations and emotional status, thank you. These are irrelevant. And part two of this is YOU DO NOT KNOW ME. You have scarcely met me, have never interviewed me nor asked me about my life or my reality. I am a total blank to you. And you make pronouncements on my state? How do you know who I am? You know NOTHING about my life except what a person sees from an image of another in a magazine. It takes EFFORT to know another.
Before I even PRESUMED to interview you - to ask intelligent questions of you - I spoke to you for hours. I listened to the audio tape many times. I meditated on your words. I read your site and bought your book. Still, I by no means became an expert on Swami G. Just ready to ask the right questions. But what does Swami G. do? Not studying Rasa one iota she pronounces her spiritual, mental and emotional state - which need fixing. This could be construed as Arrogance and Pride.
Now Rev. Jeff noted my appearance on your group, Guru_Satsang, that I had complained about prior treatment. So what? You and Rev. Jeff had also been mistreated. I heard a lot of this from a friend and felt sympathy. I asked if this was 'safe space' for gurus, where we could speak shoulder to shoulder. You said yes. We could talk about mutual problems with devotees and the like - which is what I came there for. It was for friendship that I came, not analysis and not being told what to do with my site. Then came a plethora of unwanted things. One, a tirade of letters from Rev. Jeff, and two, a lot of advice of what to take off my site. I took this with a grain of salt and thickened my skin. But friendship it was not. What is a friend? One, who at least on some level, sees the other as equal. Right from the getgo you let it be known this was not equals. I was lower, you were higher. We could not discuss, I could ask questions and you could teach. So I asked questions, and you told me your Truth. Then, much later, I told you my Truth. It was your FIRST indication of who I am. And you don't like it!
Swami G, you say over and over again that I am "threatened" and your words should not be taken as a "threat." What are you talking about? The threat I am combating is the one against Truth - you threaten Truth, and so, I am defending it. I will give the finest example of how you threaten Truth, or speak against it.
If one truly listens to you and analyzes your stance, it is obvious that you claim you are ABOVE both Jesus Christ and Ramakrishna. That is why I keep asking you about these two Persons. You know well, that you would be made a laughing stock if you said this outright, so you talk around it. But in your cosmology, there is no mistake, that anyone who called God Father, Mother, or any other name, is in the less-than-Swami Nirvikalpa state, they are Savikalpa. Now you know people will laugh if you put down Ramakrishna, so you come up with specious, wobbly arguments why it was ok for him to worship God as separate, as he was not really separate, but he knew he was not separate, just an echo, etc. And when I bring up his sufferings and agonies, (which is a no-no in your state), once again, he suffered, but it was not really suffering, etc. The point being that Ramakrishna is accepted by all known as a Realized Being and an Enlightened Soul, and yet, he went through many nondual religions and practiced them unto perfection! He worshipped Krishna, Jesus and the Muslim way, among other paths; an all-around spiritual genius. So here, right before your eyes, is a Being who refutes what you say; that a person cannot be nondual and be Enlightened, but there is it. And your explanations of how this could be, while still holding onto your doctrine, make about as much sense as Charlie Brown.
person who blows away your doctrine is Jesus Christ. You cannot touch Him,
either, without making yourself look foolish. So you talk around Him, never
facing the fact that JESUS WORSHIPPED GOD OUTSIDE HIMSELF. Jesus was a dualist
as well as a nondualist. Of course, Jesus was like Ramakrishna, both Geniuses
who could see it either way. And there are other geniuses past and present,
living this sort of spiritual realm, but you deny that they could be Realized
or fully Enlightened - like you - unless they are total nondualists. In other
words, they cannot pray, do mantras, worship God in any image, talk to God,
or even meditate. They must know they are God and
that is it, no other way! You say that you are above those who say they are ONE with God, and they and God are ONE and the same - like when Jesus said, "I and the Father are One,' 'If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.'
When Jesus said his 'Seven last words' on the Cross (meaning phrases) two of them were addressed to His Heavenly Father. One was,
'My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?' And then, 'Father, into thy hands I commend my Spirit.'
Now we who understand proper Christian theology understand that Jesus operated out of two principles: His Sacred humanity (that which you deny) and His Divinity. Those who become Him follow this as well. We sometimes sink into the Sacred Humanity of the clay God has given us, or we ascend into the Divinity where the Spirit dwells. We do not deny one or the other. You affirm one, but deny the other. And so, you contradict Jesus Christ and the theology surrounding Him.
I think exactly like Jesus, not exactly the way you do. You say this is a lower form of Realization! You cannot refute saying this, you have put it in black and white. This is the threat I am fighting - not against myself as a personality, but something bigger. Please don't push me down to where I am not!
You cannot explain away Jesus and Ramakrishna, while it is much easier to dismiss other saints, lesser knowns, and the living, like myself. I am the easiest for you to dispose of. Now look at your attitude toward my Divine Stigmata. God keep me from any sort of ego or pride, as I speak of 'myself.' Even as I say those words, Swami condemns me as being of a lower nature - as one is never allowed to say, 'me' 'my,' 'I' or anything that differentiates or separates. But I am certain, Swami, that your bank account is under YOUR name and not open to the public to draw from. I am sure that it is YOUR clothes that are hanging in your closet, where others do not walk in and put on. And then there is YOUR apartment, YOUR car and the like. What do YOU say to that? There IS NO YOU? Shall we stop playing games here? Will you stop condemning my spiritual state if I use personal pronouns?
You have bounced me backward twice because of the Divine Stigmata. The first letter, you asked where is it now, what good has it done to save the masses? (You don't believe in missionary work, so why worry about the masses?) Today you ask me WHERE IS IT? Stigmatists had PHYSICAL WOUNDS, and so, where are mine?
Once again, you so cruelly and awfully contradict yourself. You say that God - who is not physical is That, and you are That. Then when I speak of a SPIRITUAL METAPHYSICAL UNSEEN reality, you say it has to be physical! If you can't see it with your eyes, it isn't there! If it isn't bleeding, it's not real! Here shows up a flaw in your knowledge of mystical theology, (let us make a point here. Compared to Evelyn Underhill, a '10' in the knowledge of classical mysticism, you would be much lower. This is not to say you do not understand your own state, but what Underhill knew, you are lacking. You do not know everything in this field! Better to be diplomatic than pretend you do) where the Real is the Spiritual rather than physical, and the Divine Stigmata comes in two forms, seen and unseen. I have stressed over and over again - but it escapes your busy eyes - that my Divine Stigmata is Interior, not of the flesh. Before I explain it more let me ask you again,
'Where is your Enlightenment? Can I see it? What good has it done for you and how has it saved the masses?'
Now the Divine Stigmata. If you deny mine, then you could also deny that of Our Blessed Lady and St. Gertrude the Great and St. Catherine of Sienna. Have you ever seen the image of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, with the roses around it, and the sword piercing it, and the Light streaming from Her Immaculate Heart? That is the Interior Divine Stigmata. But let me not cast pearls before the swine. Twice now, you have denied its existence. Things you have not experienced do not exist, do they? But your kundalini is real, because YOU have experienced it.
WHERE is your kundalini? What good has it done you? How has it helped the masses?
We would have no argument if the following occurred: if you would show others the kind of charity I have shown to you. I have taken you at your word. You said you were Enlightened, I believed you. You have no proof of this Enlightenment, but one gives you the benefit of the doubt. One proclaims you as one Enlightened. But if I think exactly like you I would say 'prove it.' Where is it? You want me to believe you, you assume I should believe you, and you certainly do not thank me for saying that you are Enlightened; you take it for granted. But put the shoe on the other foot. Why don't you believe me? Why can't you believe that I have the Interior Stigmata, if nothing else?
Instead of thanking me for the article I spent so much work on, you recoil when I say you claim an exclusive place. You have claimed it and you do claim it, and it is all in black and white. I have twisted nothing, changed nothing, just added my opinions.
This is not motivated by anything but my search for the Truth, so help me God.
May the angels and saints correct me if I speak wrong.
Rasa Von Werder
August 19, 2005